Discussion:
The "Butcher of the Balkans" Dies - Long Live Serbia!
(too old to reply)
nick cobb
2006-03-11 21:42:31 UTC
Permalink
Slobodan Milosevic Dies in Prison Cell

Mar 11, 3:43 PM (ET)

By ARTHUR MAX

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (AP) - Former Yugoslav leader Slobodan Milosevic,
the so-called "butcher of the Balkans" being tried for war crimes after
orchestrating a decade of bloodshed that killed 250,000 people and broke
up his country, was found dead Saturday in his prison cell. He was 64.

Milosevic, who suffered chronic heart ailments and high blood pressure,
apparently died of natural causes and was found in his bed, the U.N.
tribunal said, without giving an exact time of death.

He had been examined following frequent complaints of fatigue or ill
health that delayed his trial, but the tribunal could not immediately
say when his last medical checkup was. All detainees at the center in
Scheveningen are checked by a guard every half hour.

The tribunal said Milosevic's family had been informed of his death,
which came nearly five years after he was arrested, then extradited to
The Hague.

Chief U.N. war crimes prosecutor Carla Del Ponte said she regretted
Milosevic's death because she believed she would have won his conviction.

"I also regret it for the victims, the thousands of victims, who have
been waiting for justice," Del Ponte told German-language Swiss
Television DRS while visiting her native Switzerland.

His wife, Mirjana Markovic, who was often accused of being the power
behind the scenes during her husband's autocratic rule, has been in
self-imposed exile in Russia since 2003. His son, Marko, also lives in
Russia, and his daughter, Marija, lives in Montenegro.

Borislav Milosevic, who lives in Moscow, blamed the U.N tribunal for
causing his younger brother's death by refusing him medical treatment in
Russia.

"All responsibility for this lies on the shoulders of the international
tribunal. He asked for treatment several months ago, they knew this," he
told The Associated Press. "They drove him to this as they didn't want
to let him out alive."

Milosevic asked the court in December to let him go to Moscow for
treatment. But the tribunal refused, despite assurances from Russia that
Milosevic would return to finish his trial.

The White House said it was waiting for more information.

"We have seen the news that Slobodan Milosevic has died in his prison in
The Hague," spokesman Blair Jones said. "We do not have all the details
yet."

U.S. State Department acting spokesman Tom Casey said "the tribunal will
be looking into the circumstances" of Milosevic's death.

The tribunal said it would conduct a full inquiry, including an autopsy
on Sunday and toxicological examination. A pathologist from
Serbia-Montenegro will observe the autopsy.

But Borislav Milosevic said his family does not trust the U.N. tribunal
to conduct that autopsy impartially.

Slobodan Milosevic has been on trial since February 2002, defending
himself against 66 counts of crimes, including genocide, in Croatia,
Bosnia and Kosovo. He was the first sitting head of state ever to be
indicted for such crimes.

He was accused of orchestrating a brutal campaign of ethnic cleansing
against non-Serbs during the collapse of the Yugoslav federation - his
attempt to link Serbia with Serb-dominated areas of Croatia and Bosnia
to create a new Greater Serbia.

Supporters in Milosevic's homeland declared his death a "huge loss,"
while citizens of Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo said his death brought some
justice to his victims.

"Finally, we have some reason to smile. God is fair," said Hajra Catic,
who heads an association of women that lost their loved ones in the 1995
massacre of 8,000 Muslims in the eastern Srebrenica enclave by Serb troops.

Milosevic spent much of the time granted for his defense fighting
allegations of atrocities in Kosovo that took up just one-third of his
indictment. He also faced charges of genocide in Bosnia for allegedly
overseeing the Srebrenica slaughter - the worst massacre on European
soil since World War II.

The trial was recessed last week to await his next defense witness.
Milosevic also was waiting for a court decision on his request to
subpoena former President Clinton as a witness. He was due to complete
his defense this summer.

The hundreds of witnesses included former U.S. Gen. Wesley Clark, the
NATO commander during the Balkan wars. Milosevic also tried to subpoena
former U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, former German
Chancellor Gerhard Shroeder and British Prime Minister Tony Blair.

Steven Kay, a British attorney assigned to represent Milosevic, said
Saturday the former Serb leader would not have fled and was not suicidal.

"He said to me: 'I haven't taken on all this work just to walk away from
it and not come back. I want to see this case through,'" Kay told the
British Broadcasting Corp.

Milosevic's death came less than a week after the star witness in his
trial, former Croatian Serb leader Milan Babic, was found dead in the
same prison. Babic, who was serving a 13-year prison sentence, committed
suicide.

His testimony in 2002 described a political and military command
structure headed by Milosevic in Belgrade that operated behind the scenes.

Milosevic's death will be a crushing blow to the tribunal and those
looking to establish an authoritative historical record of the Balkan wars.

"Justice was late," said Hashim Thaci, the leader of ethnic Albanian
insurgents against Milosevic's forces in 1998-1999 in Kosovo's capital,
Pristina. "God took him."

Though the witness testimony is on public record, history will be denied
the judgment of a panel of legal experts weighing the evidence of his
personal guilt and the story of his regime.

"It is a pity he didn't live to the end of the trial to get the sentence
he deserved," Croatian President Stipe Mesic said.

The European Union said Milosevic's death does not absolve Serbia of
responsibility to hand over other war crimes suspects.

The death "does not alter in any way the need to come to terms with the
legacy of the Balkan wars," Austrian Foreign Minister Ursula Plassnik,
whose country holds the rotating EU president, said in Salzburg.

Milosevic, a figure of beguiling charm and cunning ruthlessness, was a
master tactician who turned his country's defeats into personal
victories and held onto power for 13 years despite losing four wars that
shattered his nation and impoverished his people.

Milosevic led Serbia, the dominant Yugoslav republic, into four Balkan
wars during the 1990s. The secret of his survival was his uncanny
ability to exploit what less adroit figures would consider a fatal blow.

He once described himself as the "Ayatollah Khomeini of Serbia,"
assuring his prime minister, Milan Panic, that "the Serbs will follow me
no matter what." For years, they did - through wars that dismembered
Yugoslavia and plunged what was left of the country into social,
political, moral and economic ruin.

But in the end, his people abandoned him: first in October 2000, when he
was unable to convince the majority of Yugoslavs that he had staved off
electoral defeat by his successor, Vojislav Kostunica, and again on
April 1, 2001, when he surrendered after a 26-hour standoff to face
criminal charges stemming from his ruinous rule.

Bosnia also has sued Serbia, accusing it of genocide in the first case
of a country standing trial for humanity's worst crime.

Milosevic was born Aug. 20, 1941, in Pozarevac, a drab factory town in
central Serbia best known as the home of one of the country's most
notorious prisons.

His father was a defrocked Orthodox priest and sometime teacher of
Russian. His mother also was a teacher. Both committed suicide.

In high school, he met his future wife, the daughter of a wartime
communist partisan hero. Markovic also was the niece of Davorjanka
Paunovic, private secretary and mistress of Josip Broz Tito, the
communist guerrilla leader who seized power in Yugoslavia at the end of
World War II.

Milosevic became president of Serbia in 1989 elections widely considered
rigged. His rise alarmed the other peoples of former Yugoslavia -
Slovenes, Croats, Macedonians, Albanians and others - who feared that
the hard-line nationalist would allow Serbs to dominate the country.

In 1991, Croatia and Slovenia declared their independence from
Yugoslavia. Milosevic sent tanks to Slovenian borders, triggering a
brief war that ended in Slovenia's secession.

Serbs in Croatia, encouraged by Milosevic, took up arms. Milosevic sent
the Serb-led Yugoslav army to intervene, triggering a conflict that left
at least 10,000 people dead and hundreds of Croatian villages and towns
devastated before a U.N.-patrolled cease-fire was arranged in January 1992.

Three months later, Bosnia-Herzegovina declared its independence, too.
Milosevic bankrolled the Bosnian Serb rebellion, triggering an even
bigger war that killed an estimated 200,000 people before a
U.S.-brokered peace agreement was reached at Dayton, Ohio, in 1995.

During those conflicts, Yugoslavia was ostracized worldwide, and the
United States called Milosevic "the butcher of the Balkans." Strict
international sanctions and government mismanagement devastated the
economy and left its people impoverished.

At Dayton, Milosevic accepted a deal abandoning Croatia's rebel Serbs,
who were driven from their homes when the Croatian army recaptured
almost all the land the Serbs had seized there in 1991.

The Dayton agreement also meant giving up the nationalist goal of a Serb
state in Bosnia. Nevertheless, it bought Milosevic time and transformed
his image from Balkan villain to benign peacemaker.

Milosevic's term as Serbian president ended in 1997 and the constitution
prevented him from running again. However, he exploited loopholes to
have parliament name him president of Yugoslavia, which then included
only the republics of Serbia and Montenegro.

It was the thorny problem of Kosovo, the majority Albanian province that
served as his springboard to power, which finally set the stage for his
downfall. In February 1998, Milosevic sent troops to crush an ethnic
Albanian uprising there.

The United States and its allies responded with sanctions. In 1999,
after Milosevic refused to sign a Western-dictated peace agreement at
Rambouillet, France, NATO conducted 78 days of punishing airstrikes
against Yugoslavia.

Milosevic refused to back down and instead ordered his troops to crack
down on Kosovo Albanians even harder. More than 800,000 Albanians fled
into neighboring Albania, Montenegro and Macedonia before Milosevic
finally accepted a peace plan and handed over the province to the United
Nations and NATO in June 1999.

Before the conflict ended, the U.N. tribunal indicted Milosevic and four
of his top aides for war crimes and crimes against humanity allegedly
committed in Kosovo. Later, they broadened the charges against him to
include genocide.
R.V. Gronoff
2006-03-11 21:57:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by nick cobb
Slobodan Milosevic Dies in Prison Cell
An antichrist finally meets his master in hell!
Alexander Arnakis
2006-03-12 00:43:09 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 22:57:00 +0100, "R.V. Gronoff"
Post by R.V. Gronoff
Post by nick cobb
Slobodan Milosevic Dies in Prison Cell
An antichrist finally meets his master in hell!
Milosevic was enabled by the Serbian people. As a cynical politician,
he gave them exactly what they wanted. He fanned the flames of Serbian
nationalism because he knew that was how he could bridge his personal
career from Communism to a new system.

Who has clean hands when it comes to the events of the Balkans? I was
in Greece during the bombing campaign against Serbia in 1999, and I
can tell you that most Greeks were sympathetic to Milosevic and the
Serbs. Some even went to Serbia to volunteer. It was the U.S. and NATO
that were the targets of the graffiti all over Greece.

As I recall, there were those (even on this newsgroup!) who were
supporting Serbia at the time, in the name of Orthodox solidarity.

So it's kind of a cheap shot to throw darts at Milosevic now...
R.V. Gronoff
2006-03-12 02:04:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Arnakis
On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 22:57:00 +0100, "R.V. Gronoff"
Post by R.V. Gronoff
Post by nick cobb
Slobodan Milosevic Dies in Prison Cell
An antichrist finally meets his master in hell!
Milosevic was enabled by the Serbian people. As a cynical politician,
he gave them exactly what they wanted. He fanned the flames of Serbian
nationalism because he knew that was how he could bridge his personal
career from Communism to a new system.
Who has clean hands when it comes to the events of the Balkans? I was
in Greece during the bombing campaign against Serbia in 1999, and I
can tell you that most Greeks were sympathetic to Milosevic and the
Serbs. Some even went to Serbia to volunteer. It was the U.S. and NATO
that were the targets of the graffiti all over Greece.
As I recall, there were those (even on this newsgroup!) who were
supporting Serbia at the time, in the name of Orthodox solidarity.
So it's kind of a cheap shot to throw darts at Milosevic now...
Well, it's quite fun to laugh at his worshippers now.

BTW, if any "orthodox" servs still support the Slob, here's some topics
of discussion to engage conversation with them:

http://www.insultmonger.com/swearing/bosnian.htm

(Children, don't say these words until you're 18!)
--
Virez Ahmadinejad pour me répondre.
Remove Ahmadinejad to reply.

http://bluedusk.blogspot.com/
++
2006-03-15 07:59:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.V. Gronoff
Well, it's quite fun to laugh at his worshippers now.
BTW, if any "orthodox" servs still support the Slob, here's some
http://www.insultmonger.com/swearing/bosnian.htm
(Children, don't say these words until you're 18!)
And the mother of all those "Bosnian" expressions is:

http://www.insultmonger.com/swearing/serbian.htm
Steve Hayes
2006-03-12 03:27:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by nick cobb
Slobodan Milosevic Dies in Prison Cell
When I saw the subject line I thought Madeleine Albright had died. or Bill
Clinton.
--
The unworthy deacon,
Stephen Methodius Hayes
Contact: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
Orthodox mission pages: http://www.orthodoxy.faithweb.com/
Alexander Arnakis
2006-03-12 05:42:06 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 05:27:12 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by nick cobb
Slobodan Milosevic Dies in Prison Cell
When I saw the subject line I thought Madeleine Albright had died. or Bill
Clinton.
See what I meant in my other post in this thread?

Still making excuses for Serbian genocide, eh?
Branimir Maksimovic
2006-03-12 15:30:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Arnakis
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 05:27:12 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by nick cobb
Slobodan Milosevic Dies in Prison Cell
When I saw the subject line I thought Madeleine Albright had died. or Bill
Clinton.
See what I meant in my other post in this thread?
Still making excuses for Serbian genocide, eh?
What genocide? Can you count? Where are Serbs from Kraina and Kosovo
and Metohia? If you think about Srebrenica massacre as genocide,
average Serbian would call that revenge. That is the problem.
For what I thought Milosevic is guilty for not doing war properly,
that is politics of go-stop instead of to war or not to war.
Better still war could be avoided altogather as simply admitting
borders of republics and with international diplomats.
Only problem would be Bosnia, because it is not clear muslim country,
while Izetbegovic was clear muslim fundamentalist, but with int.
pressure that could be solved too. Milosevic didn't choose
war not peace, something in between and sadly Serbia didn't act
accordingly either to solve conflict militarrily or peacefully.
But genocide, come on, Serbs survived two genocides 1.&2. ww.
All who know history, Serbs from Kraina remembered Croat knife
in ww2. Bosnia was not different story.
Now Croatia succeed to do what Ustasa didn't in ww2. All under
support of so called "allies". And Albanians. They didn't want
to negotiate in any way. They just wanted their second Albanian
state. It's just that Serbs cannot defend their territory as
others can. MEdia is modern way of covering up some unjustice
that happens throughout world. That's all.


Greetings, Bane.
R.V. Gronoff
2006-03-12 18:09:33 UTC
Permalink
L.O.S.E.R.
Branimir Maksimovic
2006-03-12 22:31:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.V. Gronoff
L.O.S.E.R.
Yes, that's why next time better choose axis :)
History lesten 1.
History lesson 2 never trust British.
History lesson 3 germans are good allies.

Greetings, Bane.
Steve Hayes
2006-03-13 01:42:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Branimir Maksimovic
Post by R.V. Gronoff
L.O.S.E.R.
Yes, that's why next time better choose axis :)
History lesten 1.
History lesson 2 never trust British.
History lesson 3 germans are good allies.
Except that the Nato bombing of Yugoslavia was done to promote German
revanchism.
--
The unworthy deacon,
Stephen Methodius Hayes
Contact: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
Orthodox mission pages: http://www.orthodoxy.faithweb.com/
Branimir Maksimovic
2006-03-13 03:20:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Branimir Maksimovic
Post by R.V. Gronoff
L.O.S.E.R.
Yes, that's why next time better choose axis :)
History lesten 1.
History lesson 2 never trust British.
History lesson 3 germans are good allies.
Except that the Nato bombing of Yugoslavia was done to promote German
revanchism.
Well, I consider NATO bombing as aggression which resulted
in occupation of part of Serbian territory.
Bombing was performed only on Serbian territory so this wasn't
bombing of Yugoslavia.
This is done because there was Albanian rebellion
and their strive for independent state from Tito's death
since beginning of 80's.
Similar thing happened in Croatia in early 90's and
Croatians cleansed whole Serbian Kraina of Serbs and
no body bombed them nor like, so this is clearly about
interests not about justice.
Whether this is German revanchism (there are places in Serbia
where German foot is still not welcome) or not I don;t know.

Greetings, Bane.
veritas
2006-03-14 16:50:17 UTC
Permalink
"Branimir Maksimovic" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:dv1eqd$1g7$***@emma.aioe.org...

The biased Carla Del Ponte ( who has a vendetta against the Serbs ) keeps
insisting that the definition of "genocide" is constantly changed so that
the atrocities she doesn't like are termed "genocide" for propaganda
purposes.

Srbrenica is an atrocity . After all prisoners of war were executed
summarily . The US does this in Iraq and did it in Vietnam .

What the Croatians and Bosnian Muslims did to the Serbians in 1940-1945 is
Genocide. But these people are Roman Catholics and Muslims that were
friendly to Germany so they can get away with Genocide.......
Steve Hayes
2006-03-12 17:34:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Arnakis
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 05:27:12 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by nick cobb
Slobodan Milosevic Dies in Prison Cell
When I saw the subject line I thought Madeleine Albright had died. or Bill
Clinton.
See what I meant in my other post in this thread?
Still making excuses for Serbian genocide, eh?
Still making excuses for US genocide, eh?
--
Keep well,

Steve Hayes
http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/peace.htm
Stephen Adams
2006-03-12 22:37:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Alexander Arnakis
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 05:27:12 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by nick cobb
Slobodan Milosevic Dies in Prison Cell
When I saw the subject line I thought Madeleine Albright had died. or Bill
Clinton.
See what I meant in my other post in this thread?
Still making excuses for Serbian genocide, eh?
Still making excuses for US genocide, eh?
It's funny how the Muslims can get away with genocide and ethnicide, and
nobody lifts a finger....

All I remember is Clinton stopped bombing Muslims during Rammadan, but
bommed Orthodox Chiristiand during Holy Week.

This is no excuse for the evil carried out by the putative Orthodox
Serbs, but rather a condemnation of the anti-Orthodox actions of the
US government.

All sides were wrong to at least some extent, Muslim, Orthodox and US
Government policy.

-Stephen
--
Space Age Cybernomad Stephen Adams
***@AMgmail.com (remove SPAM to reply)
Steve Hayes
2006-03-13 01:54:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Adams
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Alexander Arnakis
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 05:27:12 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by nick cobb
Slobodan Milosevic Dies in Prison Cell
When I saw the subject line I thought Madeleine Albright had died. or Bill
Clinton.
See what I meant in my other post in this thread?
Still making excuses for Serbian genocide, eh?
Still making excuses for US genocide, eh?
It's funny how the Muslims can get away with genocide and ethnicide, and
nobody lifts a finger....
All I remember is Clinton stopped bombing Muslims during Rammadan, but
bommed Orthodox Chiristiand during Holy Week.
This is no excuse for the evil carried out by the putative Orthodox
Serbs, but rather a condemnation of the anti-Orthodox actions of the
US government.
All sides were wrong to at least some extent, Muslim, Orthodox and US
Government policy.
Milosevic was probably not Orthodox, and the Orthodox Serbs opposed his
policies.

He was a rather nasty post-communist strongman who sought to gain popular
support by beating the nationalist drum. In that respect he was no worse than
Tudjman and Izetbegovic, and probably no better either.

His trial, however, was a put-up job. Albright, Tudjman and Izetbegovic should
have been tried alongside him if there were to be even an appearance of
impartiality.

None of the voices of Orthodix Serbs that reached the rest of the world during
Milisevic's rule was the bebiste of Fr Sava Janic of Decani monastery in
Kosovo.

Here in South Africa we were ruled by a pretty nasty bunch of dictators from
1948-1994 -- a similar period to Yugoslavia under communist rule. We got rid
of them without the benefit of Nato bombing, and I have no doubt that if there
had been such a thing, it would ahve left a legacy of hatred that would have
lasted for generations.
--
The unworthy deacon,
Stephen Methodius Hayes
Contact: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
Orthodox mission pages: http://www.orthodoxy.faithweb.com/
Branimir Maksimovic
2006-03-13 03:10:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Stephen Adams
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Alexander Arnakis
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 05:27:12 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by nick cobb
Slobodan Milosevic Dies in Prison Cell
When I saw the subject line I thought Madeleine Albright had died. or Bill
Clinton.
See what I meant in my other post in this thread?
Still making excuses for Serbian genocide, eh?
Still making excuses for US genocide, eh?
It's funny how the Muslims can get away with genocide and ethnicide, and
nobody lifts a finger....
All I remember is Clinton stopped bombing Muslims during Rammadan, but
bommed Orthodox Chiristiand during Holy Week.
This is no excuse for the evil carried out by the putative Orthodox
Serbs, but rather a condemnation of the anti-Orthodox actions of the
US government.
All sides were wrong to at least some extent, Muslim, Orthodox and US
Government policy.
Milosevic was probably not Orthodox, and the Orthodox Serbs opposed his
policies.
This is very true. I fighted with everything I got aginst Milosevic's regime
since 1991. Morale in Serbia was very low and no body liked situation
of pointless no war no peace dirty no visible goal war, and also
early morning visitas from military police to call you on
"military excercize" (most of Serbs as me runned like hell from them)
until NATO bombing happened.
If Milosevic didn;t sign capitulation, that would result
in one realy motivated war.
I've got mobilised and this time really had a death wish so
companies were overcrowded for the first time.
Serbs dream about Kosovo and Metohia,
and this is what put Milosevic on power. He promised that
he will save Serbs and provinces, but neither he found political
nor military solution. This is why he lost support in people
and finally fell down.
Post by Steve Hayes
He was a rather nasty post-communist strongman who sought to gain popular
support by beating the nationalist drum. In that respect he was no worse than
Tudjman and Izetbegovic, and probably no better either.
Nationalist drum lasted due 91. After that Milosevic had strong
opposition in people and he ruled by police oppression mainly.
That's why I have aversion to police and force even now.

Heh, after 5.8.2000, finally I got my haircut, (I've promised
not to get haircut until Milosevic falls, after one of many protests).
But Milosevic had political support from western powers until
99. That's why it was very difficult to make him fall I think.
So I wonder why they didn;t charge him in 91?92?95?
Isolated dictator is more easier to overthrow then one who is
peace keeper of Balkans. Heck he even signed Deyton pact :)

Greetings, Bane.
R.V. Gronoff
2006-03-13 03:56:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Stephen Adams
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Alexander Arnakis
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 05:27:12 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by nick cobb
Slobodan Milosevic Dies in Prison Cell
When I saw the subject line I thought Madeleine Albright had died. or Bill
Clinton.
See what I meant in my other post in this thread?
Still making excuses for Serbian genocide, eh?
Still making excuses for US genocide, eh?
It's funny how the Muslims can get away with genocide and ethnicide, and
nobody lifts a finger....
All I remember is Clinton stopped bombing Muslims during Rammadan, but
bommed Orthodox Chiristiand during Holy Week.
This is no excuse for the evil carried out by the putative Orthodox
Serbs, but rather a condemnation of the anti-Orthodox actions of the
US government.
All sides were wrong to at least some extent, Muslim, Orthodox and US
Government policy.
Milosevic was probably not Orthodox, and the Orthodox Serbs opposed his
policies.
He was a rather nasty post-communist strongman who sought to gain popular
support by beating the nationalist drum. In that respect he was no worse than
Tudjman and Izetbegovic, and probably no better either.
All three somehow adhered to the ideas expressed by Aleksandr Dugin that
constitute the National-Bolshevik party in Russia, promoting a synthesis
of nazism and communism.
This idea finds its roots in French free-mason and moslem convert René
Guénon.
Basically, the idea is that there's a so-called "primordial tradition"
from which all the religions and philosophies come from, like branches
of the same tree.
The problem becomes thus territorial and ethnical. Guénon considered
that each people must live on its own territory and follow its own
national tradition. Of course, this is completely contrary to the Gospel
and that's why Guénon became an apostate of the Roman Catholic Church he
grew in to become a muslim sheikh in Egypt.
Post by Steve Hayes
His trial, however, was a put-up job. Albright, Tudjman and Izetbegovic should
have been tried alongside him if there were to be even an appearance of
impartiality.
None of the voices of Orthodix Serbs that reached the rest of the world during
Milisevic's rule was the bebiste of Fr Sava Janic of Decani monastery in
Kosovo.
Here in South Africa we were ruled by a pretty nasty bunch of dictators from
1948-1994 -- a similar period to Yugoslavia under communist rule. We got rid
of them without the benefit of Nato bombing, and I have no doubt that if there
had been such a thing, it would ahve left a legacy of hatred that would have
lasted for generations.
But then you had Mandela, a man much more inspired by Gandhi than by
nationalist or communist dictators.
--
Virez Ahmadinejad pour me répondre.
Remove Ahmadinejad to reply.

http://bluedusk.blogspot.com/
Steve Hayes
2006-03-13 07:27:51 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 04:56:27 +0100, "R.V. Gronoff"
Post by R.V. Gronoff
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Stephen Adams
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Alexander Arnakis
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 05:27:12 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by nick cobb
Slobodan Milosevic Dies in Prison Cell
When I saw the subject line I thought Madeleine Albright had died. or Bill
Clinton.
See what I meant in my other post in this thread?
Still making excuses for Serbian genocide, eh?
Still making excuses for US genocide, eh?
It's funny how the Muslims can get away with genocide and ethnicide, and
nobody lifts a finger....
All I remember is Clinton stopped bombing Muslims during Rammadan, but
bommed Orthodox Chiristiand during Holy Week.
This is no excuse for the evil carried out by the putative Orthodox
Serbs, but rather a condemnation of the anti-Orthodox actions of the
US government.
All sides were wrong to at least some extent, Muslim, Orthodox and US
Government policy.
Milosevic was probably not Orthodox, and the Orthodox Serbs opposed his
policies.
He was a rather nasty post-communist strongman who sought to gain popular
support by beating the nationalist drum. In that respect he was no worse than
Tudjman and Izetbegovic, and probably no better either.
All three somehow adhered to the ideas expressed by Aleksandr Dugin that
constitute the National-Bolshevik party in Russia, promoting a synthesis
of nazism and communism.
This idea finds its roots in French free-mason and moslem convert René
Guénon.
That's interesting, since Guenon was one of the people who inspired Fr
Seraphim Rose.
Post by R.V. Gronoff
Basically, the idea is that there's a so-called "primordial tradition"
from which all the religions and philosophies come from, like branches
of the same tree.
The problem becomes thus territorial and ethnical. Guénon considered
that each people must live on its own territory and follow its own
national tradition. Of course, this is completely contrary to the Gospel
and that's why Guénon became an apostate of the Roman Catholic Church he
grew in to become a muslim sheikh in Egypt.
That idea was promoted earlier by German Romantics like Herder and Fichte. It
made Central and Eastern European nationalism different from Western European
nationalism, and disseminated romantic ideas about language. This influenced
Afrikaner nationalism in South Africa, and also Zionism and Hellenism.
Post by R.V. Gronoff
Post by Steve Hayes
His trial, however, was a put-up job. Albright, Tudjman and Izetbegovic should
have been tried alongside him if there were to be even an appearance of
impartiality.
None of the voices of Orthodix Serbs that reached the rest of the world during
Milisevic's rule was the bebiste of Fr Sava Janic of Decani monastery in
Kosovo.
Here in South Africa we were ruled by a pretty nasty bunch of dictators from
1948-1994 -- a similar period to Yugoslavia under communist rule. We got rid
of them without the benefit of Nato bombing, and I have no doubt that if there
had been such a thing, it would ahve left a legacy of hatred that would have
lasted for generations.
But then you had Mandela, a man much more inspired by Gandhi than by
nationalist or communist dictators.
The nearest we had to one of the Balkan strongmen was Gatsha Buthelezi, who
started off as a liberal. Until the last minute he refused to take part in the
first democractic elections, and as a result of that, 700 people died.
--
The unworthy deacon,
Stephen Methodius Hayes
Contact: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
Orthodox mission pages: http://www.orthodoxy.faithweb.com/
R.V. Gronoff
2006-03-13 12:28:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by R.V. Gronoff
All three somehow adhered to the ideas expressed by Aleksandr Dugin that
constitute the National-Bolshevik party in Russia, promoting a synthesis
of nazism and communism.
This idea finds its roots in French free-mason and moslem convert René
Guénon.
That's interesting, since Guenon was one of the people who inspired Fr
Seraphim Rose.
Well, he inspired many people mostly because of his vast erudition in
Eastern religions and sufism.
Fr. Seraphim was a sinologist prior to becoming orthodox, and it's
normal that he read Guenon's book about Taoism, simply because it is a
very accurate and interesting book indeed.
But Guenon eventually was a gnostic (or a neo-gnostic rather) who taught
that the realization of man is acquired through intellectual knowledge
rather than by faith and the actual reception of the gift of the Holy
Spirit.
Interestingly, Guenon never wrote or said anything about the Passion of
our Lord, but only commented on the universal symbolism of the cross.

I know someone who was a free-mason as well as a guenonian christian.
Well, he's been pretty much confused for many years until he watched Mel
Gibson's "The Passion of Christ" and suddenly realized the very nature
and reality of God's human incarnation.
Since then, he's left free-masonry completely and, after a time of
indecision between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, I recently heard
that he's come back to Orthodoxy - and this time to stay.

The problem with Guenon is his axiomatic dogma of the so-called
Primordial Tradition and the syncretistic doctrine of the branches that
comes from it.
I like to say that the heart of the universal spiritual Tradition is
Jesus-Christ resurrected, and that the Orthodox Church is the focal
point of all genuine wisdoms, be they from God like the Jewish
prophecies or human like the many forms of poetry and philosophies
developped by the peoples of the world.

I think that this thought is pretty close to what saint John Maximovitch
explained to fr. Seraphim when he discovered the Orthodox faith at his
cathedral in San Francisco.
--
Virez Ahmadinejad pour me répondre.
Remove Ahmadinejad to reply.

http://bluedusk.blogspot.com/
R.V. Gronoff
2006-03-13 03:49:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Adams
It's funny how the Muslims can get away with genocide and ethnicide, and
nobody lifts a finger....
In Europe ?
Should I remind you that NATO's field of operation consists only of
Europe with a possible extension to Minor Asia and Israel ?

You lost, morons, and your Führer died in his prison and is now roasting
in hell!
--
Virez Ahmadinejad pour me répondre.
Remove Ahmadinejad to reply.

http://bluedusk.blogspot.com/
Stephen Adams
2006-03-13 14:11:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.V. Gronoff
Post by Stephen Adams
It's funny how the Muslims can get away with genocide and ethnicide, and
nobody lifts a finger....
In Europe ?
Yes, in Europe.
Post by R.V. Gronoff
Should I remind you that NATO's field of operation consists only of
Europe with a possible extension to Minor Asia and Israel ?
No need.
Post by R.V. Gronoff
You lost, morons, and your Führer died in his prison and is now roasting
in hell!
My complaint is more with Bill Clinton than anything else - especially regarding
the bombing of Serbs during Holy Week while suspending bombing during Ramadan...

-Stephen
--
Space Age Cybernomad Stephen Adams
***@AMgmail.com (remove SPAM to reply)
R.V. Gronoff
2006-03-13 19:41:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Adams
My complaint is more with Bill Clinton than anything else - especially regarding
the bombing of Serbs during Holy Week while suspending bombing during Ramadan...
-Stephen
There was nothing holy in Servia in 1999.
--
Virez Ahmadinejad pour me répondre.
Remove Ahmadinejad to reply.

http://bluedusk.blogspot.com/
Stephen Adams
2006-03-13 20:47:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.V. Gronoff
Post by Stephen Adams
My complaint is more with Bill Clinton than anything else - especially regarding
the bombing of Serbs during Holy Week while suspending bombing during Ramadan...
-Stephen
There was nothing holy in Servia in 1999.
Not a single Orthodox Christian worshiping? Every single Orthodox Christian
there was part of the problem??

-Stephen
--
Space Age Cybernomad Stephen Adams
***@AMgmail.com (remove SPAM to reply)
R.V. Gronoff
2006-03-14 09:13:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Adams
Post by R.V. Gronoff
Post by Stephen Adams
My complaint is more with Bill Clinton than anything else - especially regarding
the bombing of Serbs during Holy Week while suspending bombing during Ramadan...
-Stephen
There was nothing holy in Servia in 1999.
Not a single Orthodox Christian worshiping? Every single Orthodox Christian
there was part of the problem??
-Stephen
Yes, every single Serv was responsible for the crimes of his kin and
should have repented for them.
When some Jews had deeply sinned, God sent a prophet and then comdemned
Israel to deportation and slavery until the people was fully repented
and ready to serve God again in the Holy Land.

The innocent Serbs were those who had left Servia for a civilized
country before or during the war in order not to be part, even
passively, to the evilness of their country.
--
Virez Ahmadinejad pour me répondre.
Remove Ahmadinejad to reply.

http://bluedusk.blogspot.com/
Branimir Maksimovic
2006-03-14 12:39:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.V. Gronoff
Post by Stephen Adams
Post by R.V. Gronoff
Post by Stephen Adams
My complaint is more with Bill Clinton than anything else -
especially regarding
the bombing of Serbs during Holy Week while suspending bombing during Ramadan...
-Stephen
There was nothing holy in Servia in 1999.
Not a single Orthodox Christian worshiping? Every single Orthodox Christian
there was part of the problem??
-Stephen
Yes, every single Serv was responsible for the crimes of his kin and
should have repented for them.
When some Jews had deeply sinned, God sent a prophet and then comdemned
Israel to deportation and slavery until the people was fully repented
and ready to serve God again in the Holy Land.
The innocent Serbs were those who had left Servia for a civilized
country before or during the war in order not to be part, even
passively, to the evilness of their country.
Sometimes I think you are about 12 years old.
During the war borders were closed, and before that ones
who had a chance already left during 90's. It was extremely difficult
to flee Serbia in those days, because those civilized countries
were not happy to accept anyone from area.
If not war, low wages and constant police pressure were causes
that many tried to go. I was out of a country in most dangerous
times in order to avoid army, but 99. my uncle which is British
wanted to go in Hungary to wait for me and my brother to cross
border, but it was too late :)

Greetings, Bane.
R.V. Gronoff
2006-03-14 14:40:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Branimir Maksimovic
Post by R.V. Gronoff
Post by Stephen Adams
Post by R.V. Gronoff
Post by Stephen Adams
My complaint is more with Bill Clinton than anything else - especially regarding
the bombing of Serbs during Holy Week while suspending bombing during Ramadan...
-Stephen
There was nothing holy in Servia in 1999.
Not a single Orthodox Christian worshiping? Every single Orthodox Christian
there was part of the problem??
-Stephen
Yes, every single Serv was responsible for the crimes of his kin and
should have repented for them.
When some Jews had deeply sinned, God sent a prophet and then
comdemned Israel to deportation and slavery until the people was fully
repented and ready to serve God again in the Holy Land.
The innocent Serbs were those who had left Servia for a civilized
country before or during the war in order not to be part, even
passively, to the evilness of their country.
Sometimes I think you are about 12 years old.
During the war borders were closed, and before that ones
who had a chance already left during 90's. It was extremely difficult
to flee Serbia in those days, because those civilized countries
were not happy to accept anyone from area.
If not war, low wages and constant police pressure were causes
that many tried to go. I was out of a country in most dangerous
times in order to avoid army, but 99. my uncle which is British
wanted to go in Hungary to wait for me and my brother to cross
border, but it was too late :)
Greetings, Bane.
You elected Satan Slobo twice.
It has consequences.

As I said, when the Hebrews committed some deep sin, God punished them
*all* - including the righteous ones - by war, slavery, deportation,
etc. until they repented and came back to the true worshipping of the
God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
--
Virez Ahmadinejad pour me répondre.
Remove Ahmadinejad to reply.

http://bluedusk.blogspot.com/
Branimir Maksimovic
2006-03-14 21:27:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.V. Gronoff
Post by Branimir Maksimovic
Post by R.V. Gronoff
Post by Stephen Adams
Post by R.V. Gronoff
Post by Stephen Adams
My complaint is more with Bill Clinton than anything else - especially regarding
the bombing of Serbs during Holy Week while suspending bombing during Ramadan...
-Stephen
There was nothing holy in Servia in 1999.
Not a single Orthodox Christian worshiping? Every single Orthodox Christian
there was part of the problem??
-Stephen
Yes, every single Serv was responsible for the crimes of his kin and
should have repented for them.
When some Jews had deeply sinned, God sent a prophet and then
comdemned Israel to deportation and slavery until the people was
fully repented and ready to serve God again in the Holy Land.
The innocent Serbs were those who had left Servia for a civilized
country before or during the war in order not to be part, even
passively, to the evilness of their country.
Sometimes I think you are about 12 years old.
During the war borders were closed, and before that ones
who had a chance already left during 90's. It was extremely difficult
to flee Serbia in those days, because those civilized countries
were not happy to accept anyone from area.
If not war, low wages and constant police pressure were causes
that many tried to go. I was out of a country in most dangerous
times in order to avoid army, but 99. my uncle which is British
wanted to go in Hungary to wait for me and my brother to cross
border, but it was too late :)
Greetings, Bane.
You elected Satan Slobo twice.
No I did not. I have never voted for Slobodan Milosevic.
Reason is that I didn't know he is a Satan but I simply didn't
like personality cults and dictators, and most of all police
sticks and war.
Post by R.V. Gronoff
It has consequences.
Unfortunately true. I've lost best 10 years of my life.
Thanx God last 5 years were normal.
Post by R.V. Gronoff
As I said, when the Hebrews committed some deep sin, God punished them
*all* - including the righteous ones - by war, slavery, deportation,
etc. until they repented and came back to the true worshipping of the
God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Same you could say about any nation.
Truth is that historical circumstances were against Serbia
and we unfortunately got very bad leaders.

Greetings, Bane.
R.V. Gronoff
2006-03-15 16:19:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Branimir Maksimovic
Post by R.V. Gronoff
Post by Branimir Maksimovic
Post by R.V. Gronoff
Post by Stephen Adams
Post by R.V. Gronoff
Post by Stephen Adams
My complaint is more with Bill Clinton than anything else -
especially regarding
the bombing of Serbs during Holy Week while suspending bombing
during Ramadan...
-Stephen
There was nothing holy in Servia in 1999.
Not a single Orthodox Christian worshiping? Every single Orthodox Christian
there was part of the problem??
-Stephen
Yes, every single Serv was responsible for the crimes of his kin and
should have repented for them.
When some Jews had deeply sinned, God sent a prophet and then
comdemned Israel to deportation and slavery until the people was
fully repented and ready to serve God again in the Holy Land.
The innocent Serbs were those who had left Servia for a civilized
country before or during the war in order not to be part, even
passively, to the evilness of their country.
Sometimes I think you are about 12 years old.
During the war borders were closed, and before that ones
who had a chance already left during 90's. It was extremely difficult
to flee Serbia in those days, because those civilized countries
were not happy to accept anyone from area.
If not war, low wages and constant police pressure were causes
that many tried to go. I was out of a country in most dangerous
times in order to avoid army, but 99. my uncle which is British
wanted to go in Hungary to wait for me and my brother to cross
border, but it was too late :)
Greetings, Bane.
You elected Satan Slobo twice.
No I did not. I have never voted for Slobodan Milosevic.
You preferred Seselj ?
Post by Branimir Maksimovic
Reason is that I didn't know he is a Satan but I simply didn't
like personality cults and dictators, and most of all police
sticks and war.
Post by R.V. Gronoff
It has consequences.
Unfortunately true. I've lost best 10 years of my life.
Thanx God last 5 years were normal.
Post by R.V. Gronoff
As I said, when the Hebrews committed some deep sin, God punished them
*all* - including the righteous ones - by war, slavery, deportation,
etc. until they repented and came back to the true worshipping of the
God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Same you could say about any nation.
Yup. Germany, Japan, for example.
Post by Branimir Maksimovic
Truth is that historical circumstances were against Serbia
and we unfortunately got very bad leaders.
The same could be said about nazi Germany: the circumstances were the
treaty of Versailles and the Wall Street krach.
But these circumstances can be no excuse to the atrocities the Servs
indulged in when they *started* the war.
--
Virez Ahmadinejad pour me répondre.
Remove Ahmadinejad to reply.

http://bluedusk.blogspot.com/
Branimir Maksimovic
2006-03-15 17:16:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.V. Gronoff
Post by Branimir Maksimovic
Post by R.V. Gronoff
You elected Satan Slobo twice.
No I did not. I have never voted for Slobodan Milosevic.
You preferred Seselj ?
Are you trying to be cynical? :) That's something which isn't
expected from Christian.
All Serbs are evil, we are Satan nation. Let's kill us all.
Do you like that more?
So be sure I will vote for Seselj next time :)
Post by R.V. Gronoff
Post by Branimir Maksimovic
Reason is that I didn't know he is a Satan but I simply didn't
like personality cults and dictators, and most of all police
sticks and war.
Post by R.V. Gronoff
It has consequences.
Unfortunately true. I've lost best 10 years of my life.
Thanx God last 5 years were normal.
Post by R.V. Gronoff
As I said, when the Hebrews committed some deep sin, God punished
them *all* - including the righteous ones - by war, slavery,
deportation, etc. until they repented and came back to the true
worshipping of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Same you could say about any nation.
Yup. Germany, Japan, for example.
Wow. Small country of about 10 million people of which are about 6-8
million Serbs you are comparing to Japan and Germany :)
Post by R.V. Gronoff
Post by Branimir Maksimovic
Truth is that historical circumstances were against Serbia
and we unfortunately got very bad leaders.
The same could be said about nazi Germany: the circumstances were the
treaty of Versailles and the Wall Street krach.
But these circumstances can be no excuse to the atrocities the Servs
indulged in when they *started* the war.
I'm talking about are historical our
mistakes and balance of powers.

Greetings, Bane.
Steve Hayes
2006-03-14 01:17:23 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 20:41:20 +0100, "R.V. Gronoff"
Post by R.V. Gronoff
Post by Stephen Adams
My complaint is more with Bill Clinton than anything else - especially regarding
the bombing of Serbs during Holy Week while suspending bombing during Ramadan...
-Stephen
There was nothing holy in Servia in 1999.
To call what is good evil is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

To cal evil good is comparatively venial.
--
The unworthy deacon,
Stephen Methodius Hayes
Contact: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
Orthodox mission pages: http://www.orthodoxy.faithweb.com/
Steve Hayes
2006-03-13 02:18:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Arnakis
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 05:27:12 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by nick cobb
Slobodan Milosevic Dies in Prison Cell
When I saw the subject line I thought Madeleine Albright had died. or Bill
Clinton.
See what I meant in my other post in this thread?
Still making excuses for Serbian genocide, eh?
MILOSEVIC: TEST YOUR MEDIA

By MICHEL COLLON

It becomes a little less difficult to determine whether we have been infor
med correctly about Yugoslavia. Did they have a right to present the Nato
war as "humanitarian"? Did the Great Powers have secret strategies? Were
there media lies told and war propaganda spread?

We recommend that you take this brief Media test in order to have a clear
view, and to test how your medias are going to inform you in the coming ho
urs.

MEDIA QUIZ

How good is our information on the destruction of Yugoslavia?

1 Did the war begin in 1991 with the secessions of Slovenia and Croatia?
O Yes O No O Don't know

2 Did Germany deliberately provoke the civil war?
O Yes O No O Don't know

3 Did the US really remain 'passive and disinterested' during this war?
O Yes O No O Don't know

4 Did the World Bank and the IMF help destroying this country?
O Yes O No O Don't know

5 Did the media give a phony image of 'our friends' Tudjman & Izetbegovic?
O Yes O No O Don't know

6 Did the media hide the essential history and geography of Bosnia?
O Yes O No O Don't know

7 Was the topic 'Serb aggressors, Croat and Muslim victims' correct?
O Yes O No O Don't know

8 Did Serbia initiate a program of ethnic cleansing?
O Yes O No O Don't know

9 Did the media correctly report on Srebrenica?
O Yes O No O Don't know

10 Were the first victims of the war killed by the Serbs?
O Yes O No O Don't know

11 Was the famous image of the 'concentration camps' false?
O Yes O No O Don't know

12 Were we given the true stories on the three large massacres in Sarajevo?

O Yes O No O Don't know

13 Was the largest ethnic cleansing of the war committed by the Croat Army?

O Yes O No O Don't know

14 Did the US use depleted uranium weapons also in Bosnia?
O Yes O No O Don't know

15 Was the war against Yugoslavia the US's 'only good war'?
O Yes O No O Don't know

ANSWERS:

1 1991 OR EARLIER?

Did the war begin in 1991 with the secessions of Slovenia and Croatia?

NO. In 1979, the BND (German CIA) sent a team of secret agents to Zagreb.
Mission: to support Franjo Tudjman, a racist who actively promoted ethnic
hatred and did all he could toward the break-up of Yugoslavia. Germany
supported and financed this Croatian Le Pen, and sent him arms before the
war.

To what end? Berlin never acknowledged the existence of the unified Yugoslav
state which had courageously resisted German aggression in the two world
wars. By once more breaking Yugoslavia into easily dominated mini-states,
Germany sought to control the Balkans. An economic zone it could annex in
order to remove it from local authority, to export German products to it,and
to dominate it as a market. And a strategic route toward the oil and gas of
the Middle East and the Caucasus. In 1992, the Bavarian Interior Minister
declared: "Helmut Kohl has succeeded where neither Emperor Guillaumenor
Hitler could." (see the parallel maps 'Yugoslavia in 1941--in 1991', Liars'
Poker, pp 68-69)

2 GERMAN WILL?

Did Germany deliberately provoke the civil war?

YES. At the beginning of the Maastricht Summit in 1991, German Chancellor
Kohl was alone in wanting to break up Yugoslavia and precipitously to
recognize the 'independence' of Slovenia and Croatia, in defiance of both
International Law and the Yugoslav Constitution. But the rise of German
power would impose this madness on all its partners. Paris and London fell
right inline.

According to The Observer of London: "Prime Minister Major paid dearly
forsupporting German policies toward Yugoslavia which all observers said
precipitated the war." In effect, all the experts had warned that this
'recognition' would provoke a civil war. Why? 1. Nearly every Yugoslav
Republicwas a mix of diverse nationalities. Separating the territories was
as absurd as dividing Paris or London into ethnically pure municipal
districts. 2. By favoring the neo-fascist Tudjman and the Muslim nationalist
Izetbegovic (who had in his youth collaborated with Hitler), it was certain
that panic would be provoked among the important Serb minorities who had
lived for centuries in Croatia and Bosnia. Every Serb family had lost at
least one member to the horrible genocide committed by the fascist Croats
and Muslims,agents of Nazi Germany in 1941-45.

Only Tito's Yugoslavia had been able to bring about peace, equality and
coexistence. But Berlin, then Washington, wanted once and for all to break
this country they saw as being 'too far to the Left' (see question 4).

3 A PASSIVE USA?

Did the US remain 'passive and disinterested' during this war?

NO. Lord Owen, special European Union envoy to Bosnia, and later a
well-placed observer, wrote in his memoirs: "I greatly respect the United
States.But in recent years (92-95) this nation's diplomacy has been guilty
of needlessly prolonging the war in Bosnia."

What was its aim? While the Germans were busy taking control of
Slovenia,Croatia and, eventually, Bosnia, Washington put pressure on
Izetbegovic, the Muslim nationalist leader in Sarajevo: "Don't sign any
peace agreementsproposed by the Europeans. We will win the war for you on
the ground." Washington then prolonged for two years the horrible suffering
inflicted on all the people of Bosnia.

By what means? 1. Setting aside all the advantages Berlin had gained in this
strategic region of the Balkans. 2. Dividing and weakening the European
Union. 3. Installing NATO as the Continental European policeman.
4.Restricting all Russian access to the Mediterranian Sea. 5. Imposing its
military and political leadership on all the other wars being prepared.

Because the war against Yugoslavia was at the same time a non-declared
waragainst Europe. After the fall of the Berlin wall, US strategies were
geared toward stopping, at all costs, the emergence of a European
superpower. So everything was done to weaken Europe militarily and
politically.

4 WORLD BANK & IMF

Did the World Bank and the IMF help destroying this country?

YES. In December 1989, the IMF imposed draconian conditions on Yugoslavia
which forced liberal prime minister Markovic to beg for aid from George Bush
Sr. This 'help' was aimed at destabilizing and bankrupting all large
state-owned businesses. The World Bank dismantled the banking system, laid
off525,000 workers in one year, then ordered the immediate elimination of
twoout of every three jobs. The quality of life fell dramatically.

These policies and the growing incidence of work stoppages in solidarity
with displaced workers in all the Republics heightened the contradictions
among the leaders of the various Republics to whom Belgrade could no longer
provide financing. To get themselves out of this mess, the leaders had to
resort to divisive tactics and invested greatly in nationalist hatreds. This
war was ignited from abroad. Like so many others.

The war against Yugoslavia was a war of globalization. All the great Western
powers sought to liquidate the Yugoslav economic system which they found too
Leftist: with a strong public sector, important social rights, resistance to
the multinationals... The real reason for these various wars against
Yugoslavia can be read in this reproach (this threat?) from the Washington
Post: "Milosevic was unable to grasp the political message of the fall of
the Berlin wall. Other Communist politicians accepted the Western model, but
Milosevic went the other way." (4 August 1996).

5 "OUR FRIENDS"

Did the media give a phony image of 'our friends' Tudjman & Izetbegovic?

YES. The hyper-nationalist Croat and Muslim leaders were presented as the
pure victims, great anti-racist democrats. But their past as much as their
present should have alerted us:

When he took power, Franjo Tudjman declared: "I'm happy my wife isn't a Jew
or a Serb." He hurriedly renamed the streets that had carried the namesof
antifascist partisans, reinstated the money and the flag of the old
genocidal fascist regime, and changed the Constitution in order to run off
theSerbs.

During his 1990 electoral campaign, Izetbegovic reissued his 'Islamic
Declaration': "There can be neither peace nor coexistence between the
Islamic religion and those social and political institutions that are
non-Islamic."He set up a corrupt and mafia-ridden regime based primarily on
the lucrative black market and the hijacking of funds from international
aid. He called for assistance, with Washington's blessings, from Islamic
mercenaries, most notably from al Qaeda.

Once the war had started, serious crimes were committed by all three camps,
but by hiding these histories, the situation was rendered incomprehensible.

6 HISTORY & GEOGRAPHY

Did the media hide the essential history and geography of Bosnia?

YES. We were made to believe that the Serbs were the aggressors, that
theyhad invaded Bosnia from outside its borders. In reality, three national
groups had been living in Bosnia for a long time: the Muslims (43%), the
Serbs (31%), the Croats (17%). And one should not forget that 7% of
'Yugoslavs' were born of mixed marriages or preferred to eschew narrow
national identities.

Dividing Bosnia according to nationalities, as the EU did, was absurd and
dangerous. Because this diverse population was completely intermingled: the
Muslims lived primarily in the cities while the Serbs and Croats made upthe
peasantry and were dispersed throughout the sub-regions. Bosnia couldnot be
divided without civil war.

In fact, the Serbs of Bosnia did not fight to invade the territories of
'others', but to save their own lands and establish corridors of
communication between them. It was an absurd and bloody situation, with all
the ravages of a civil war, but this civil war was provoked by the great
powers.

7 "GOOD GUYS" AND "BAD GUYS"

Was the presumption of "Serb aggressors, Croat and Muslim victims" correct?

NO. In command of the UN forces in Bosnia from July 1993 to January 1994,
Belgian general Briquemont was well placed to declare: "The disinformationis
total (...) Television needs a scapegoat. For the moment, there is complete
unanimity in condemning the Serbs, and that in no way facilitates thesearch
for a solution. I don't think one can view the problem of ex-Yugoslavia and
of Bosnia-Herzegovina only from the anti-Serb angle. It is much more
complicated than that. One day in the middle of the Croat-Muslim war, we
gave some information on the massacres committed by the Croatian army. An
American journalist said to me: 'If you give out that sort of information,
the American public won't understand anything.'"

It is not a question of denying the crimes committed by the Serb forces.

The ideology one finds in the writings of Bosnian Serb leader Karadzic is
extremely right wing. But in reality, after the break-up of Yugoslavia, on
all sides, certain criminal and political forces used the methods of war
toseize territory and riches. In the three camps - Croat, Muslim and Serb
-militias committed grave crimes. To the detriment of all the people. Thus,
in August 1994, the Muslim nationalist leader in Sarajevo, Izetbegovic,
attacked the Muslim region of Bihac, controlled by Fikret Abdic, who had
distanced himself from Izetbegovic and wanted to live in harmony with his
Serband Croat neighbors. In this offensive, Izetbegovic was aided by six US
generals.

Remaining silent to the crimes of 'our friends' but demonizing whoever
resists us is classic war propaganda. Numerous media lies were totally
fabricated by a US public relations firm, Ruder Finn. Colleagues of the
famous Hill & Knowlton, who created the media lie about Kuwaiti incubators
stolen by the Iraqis.

8 "ETHNIC CLEANSING"?

Did Serbia initiate a program of ethnic cleansing?

NO. If one believes that ethnic cleansing was actually the program of
'thedictator Milosevic', one has to admit that this program was sadly
ineffective. Because throughout the war years and still today, one of every
five inhabitants of Serbia is a non-Serb. In Belgrade there are and have
alwaysbeen many minorities living without any difficulty: Muslims, Gypsies,
Albanians, Macedonians, Turks, Hungarians, Gorans . . .

In reality, contrary to the image given by the press, Serbia is today the
only state of the ex-Yugoslavia, along with Macedonia, that remains
'multinational'. On the other hand, all the NATO protectorates - Croatia,
Bosnia and Kosovo - practiced an almost total ethnic purification.

Milosevic objected to the excesses committed by the Serb militias in Bosnia.
His wife made several declarations against them. An embargo was even applied
by Serbia against Karadzic. Certainly, part of Serb public opinion was
influenced by racist nationalism. But this was due precisely to Germany and
the great powers having plunged the country into civil war and thus into
hatred.

9 SREBRENICA

Did the media correctly report on Srebrenica?

NO. First element. Even if it's a matter of condemning abominable
crimes,historical truth - necessary for reconciliation - is not served by
the propagandistic processes that unreflexively use the term 'genocide', by
the obfuscation of the fact that that some of the victims died in combat or
by the systematic exaggeration of the numbers. Inquests have determined that
many of the 'victims' were found some months later voting in subsequent
elections or even taking part in other battles with Izetbegovic's army. This
information was and remains obscured. We won't here go into the argument
over numbers which only serious historians will be able to sort out
definitively.

Second element. Why did the media hide the events essential to an
understanding of this drama? In the beginning, this region was inhabited by
Muslim AND Serbs. The latter were run off in 1993 by an ethnic cleansing
committed by the Muslim nationalist troops of Izetbegovic. French general
Morillon, who commanded the UN force there, charges: "On the night of the
Orthodox Christmas, the holy night of January 1993, Nasser Oric led raids on
Serb villages. . . . There were heads cut off, abominable massacres
committedby the forces of Nasser Oric in all the neighboring villages."
(Documents of information from the French National Assembly, Srebrenica, t
2, pp. 140-154) The desire for vengeance does not excuse the crimes
committed later. But why systematically hide the crimes of 'our friends'?

Third element. Like other so-called demilitarized 'safe havens', Srebrenica
was in reality an area used by the forces of Izetbegovic to regroup, theUN
protecting them from total defeat. Astonishingly, Oric's troops retreated
from Srebrenica just a week before the massacre. French general Germanos:
"Oric had widely declared that they had abandoned Srebrenica because they'd
wanted Srebrenica to fall. The 'they' was Izetbegovic."

And why? It is interesting to return to a curious UN report, written a year
and a half earlier by Kofi Annan: "Izetbegovic had learned that a NATO
intervention into Bosnia was possible. But it would happen only if the Serbs
forced their way into Srebrenica and massacred at least 5,000 people [sic]."
A massacred predicted a year and a half before it happened! (UN Report of
28-29 November)

General Morillon also informed us that "It is Izetbegovic's people who
opposed the evacuation of all those who had asked to be taken out, and there
were many." His conclusion: "Mladic fell into a trap at Srebrenica."

10 FIRST VICTIMS

Were the first victims of the war killed by Serbs?

NO. June 28, 1991, the Slovenian police executed (at least) two unarmed
soldiers of the Yugoslav national army who had surrendered at Holmec, a post
on the Austrian border. This was acknowledged by the newspaper Slovenske
Novice. It has also been 'established from the very beginning' that three
soldiers of this same Yugoslav army were executed at a post on the Italian
border after surrendering themselves. (Facts and testimony reported to
theICY at The Hague, cfr Forgotten Crimes, Igor Mekina, AIM Ljubljana,
11/02/99).

11 CONCENTRATION CAMPS?

Was the famous image of the 'concentration camps' false?

YES. Fabricated by Bernard Kouchner and Medecins du Monde, this image showed
some 'prisoners' held, seemingly, behind barbed wire. One of them
hadterribly protruding ribs. Kouchner had pasted beside the photo a guard
tower from Auschwitz and the accusation 'mass extermination'. To hammer home
the message "Serbs = Nazis". He thus abetted a campaign of demonization
launched by the US public relations firm Ruder Finn.

But the whole thing was faked and taken from a report by British TV channel
ITN. The trickery became obvious when one viewed the footage shot at thesame
time by a local TV news crew. In reality, the British camera had been
deliberately placed behind the two lonely strands of barbed wire that formed
a fence surrounding an old enclosure for farming equipment. The 'prisoners'
were on the 'outside' of the barbed wire. Free because they were refugees in
this camp to escape the war and the militias who would force them to fight.
In the complete film, the only prisoner who speaks English declares to the
ITN journalist three times that they are being well treated and are safe.
The man with the protruding ribs (gravely ill) was called to the foreground
when all his mates looked to be in too good a shape. Kouchner'smontage was a
gross falsehood. (Cfr Liars' Poker, p. 34)

There certainly were camps in Bosnia. Not for extermination, but rather for
the preparation of prisoner exchanges. Violations of Human Rights were
committed here. But why were the UN reports on this subject hidden from us?
They accounted for six Croat camps, two Serb camps and one Muslim camp.

12 SARAJEVO

Were we given the true stories on the three large massacres in Sarajevo?

NO. Three times Western public opinion was shocked by these terrible images:
dozens of victims blown to bits in front of a bakery or in the marketplace
of Sarajevo. Immediately the Serbs were accused of having killed civilians
by bombarding the city. This despite numerous contradictions in official
communications.

But never was the public informed of the results of inquiries made
outsidethe UN. Nor of the reports which accused the forces of president
Izetbegovic. Furthermore, high Western officials knew about them but kept
them carefully hidden. It was only much later that the editor-in-chief of
the Nouvel Observateur, Jean Daniel, admitted: "Today I have to say it. I
heard, in succession, Edouard Balladur (French Prime Minister at the time),
Fran=E7ois Leotard (Minister of the Army), Alain Juppe (Foreign Minister)
and two 'high-ranking' generals, whose confidence I will not betray by
naming them, tell me (. . .) that the shell fired on the marketplace was
itself also from the Muslims! They would have brought carnage upon their own
people! Was I afraid of this observation? Yes, the Prime Minister answered
mewithout hesitating... "(Nouvel Observateur, August 21, 1995)

Why these manipulations? As if by chance, each massacre took place just
before an important meeting to justify some Western measures: an embargo
against the Serbs (92), a NATO bombing (94), a final offensive (95). NATO
and Izetbegovic applied an essential principle of war propaganda: justify
the offensive with a media lie, a 'massacre' to shock public opinion.

The official version of the siege of Sarajevo hides several points: 1. The
Serb forces certainly committed serious crimes. But the civilians who wanted
to flee through a tunnel that permitted them to leave the city were stopped
by the Izetbegovic regime. He wanted to maximize the clientele for his black
market, hijacking international aid money. 2. It was especiallyimportant to
present a black and white image of a victim people and their aggressors. In
reality, even in Sarajevo, Izetbegovic's snipers regularly killed the
inhabitants of Serb sections of the city without anyone ever speaking of it.
3. Some equally grave atrocities went down, for example, at Mostar. But here
they were due to fighting between the Croat and Muslim forces who had long
before run off all the Serbs.

13 THE LARGEST "CLEANSING"

Was the largest ethnic cleansing of the war committed by the Croat army?

YES. On August 4, 1995, a hundred thousand Croat soldiers, a hundred and
fifty tanks, two hundred troop transports, more than three hundred pieces
ofartillery, and forty missile launchers attacked the Serb population of
theKrajina. More than 150,000 Serbs were forced to leave this region which
they had inhabited for centuries. The worst atrocities of the war were
committed: the Croat forces killed the elderly who could not flee, and
burned 85% of the abandoned houses.

Clinton called the offensive 'useful'. His Secretary of State said:
"Theretaking of the Krajina could lead to a new strategic situation which
might be favorable for us." Worse yet: the United States advised Croatia in
carrying out its offensive, according to an admission by the Croatian
foreign minister. Furthermore, it was Washington that took charge of the
'democratic' training of this army. (Liars' Poker, pp. 193-194)

14 URANIUM BOMBS

Did the US use depleted uranium weapons also in Bosnia?

YES. At an international conference, "Uranium, the victims speak", organized
in Brussels in March 2001, a Bosnian doctor presented a Bosnian Serb forest
ranger, a victim like many others of multiple atypical and fast moving
cancers. after having been exposed to DU in areas of US bombardment.

A Bosnian health official laid out some statistics : the population ofa Serb
neighbourhood of Sarajevo bombed by US planes in 1995, (a population later
expelled from that city), showed a five-fold increase in various types of
cancer.

The weapons using depleted uranium allowed the US - but also France andGreat
Britain - to get rid of waste materials from their nuclear plants. These
by-products seriously pollute the earth as well as the underground water
table, causing cancer, leukemia and monstrous birth defects (including
babies born to contaminated GIs). In short, use of these depleted uranium
arms transformed several countries into nuclear waste dumps for eternity.
(video and brochure "Uranium, the victims speak").

15 THE ONLY "GOOD WAR"

Was the war against Yugoslavia the US's only good war?

NO. The United States tried to make believe that it had fought a
humanitarian war. And to present itself, for once, as a defender of Muslims.
But in reality Washington and Berlin provoked this war. Deliberately. In the
selfish interest of conquering certain strategic objectives: the economic
colonization of the Balkans, gaining control of the routes for transporting
oil, and the fight for world domination.

The USA has never fought a humanitarian war. And it was not the fireman in
this war against Yugoslavia, it was the firebug. It was the most guilty of
inflicting suffering on all the people. The USA can not be, on the one hand,
the friend of the Muslims in the Balkans, and, on the other, their worst
enemy in Palestine and Iraq. The US is the Muslims' enemy everywhere.

And the most dangerous enemy of all the people of the world. It
threatensSyria, Iran, North Korea, Cuba, and some day even China. Because
its war strategy has no other goal than to maintain an unjust economic
order, to dominate and exploit every country on earth to the end of further
enriching a small handful of super - billionairs.

This is why it is so important to unmask all the media lies and to make the
truth known about the war against Yugoslavia: It was a war of aggression.

In conclusion. An appeal.

We will not give you a 'score' to evaluate the degree to which you have
suffered from media manipulations. That would be indecent. During this
decade, too many innocents suffered and suffer still because of the
disinformation orchestrated by the great powers in order to advance their
imperialist domination.

And other people, closer to you, or yourself perhaps, have suffered another
injury: knowing what was traumatizing you behind these orchestrated lies,
but not being able to do anything about it. Such was the powerful
indoctrination of the public consciousness.

The answers that we set forth here are the results of long research,
whichtook a great deal of time and required detailed investigation to break
outthe truth. We would like only to show you that it is possible for each
ofyou to escape the media's hypnotic spell meant to make us accept the
unacceptable.

What to do? It's not enough, after the lies of each conflict, to say: "Never
again!" We must search without ceasing to understand what is truly atstake
economically and strategically in each war. To yank the curtain onthe
puppeteers who pull the strings from off-stage. To organize collectively, to
investigate more rapidly. And to spread more widely the results of these
'media quiz'.

You can help reinforce the effects of the media quiz by contacting us.
Because we must never become enured to this horror and cynicism.

SEE ALSO
http://www.michelcollon.info/articles.php
--
The unworthy deacon,
Stephen Methodius Hayes
Contact: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
Orthodox mission pages: http://www.orthodoxy.faithweb.com/
mr. snerdly
2006-03-13 19:15:28 UTC
Permalink
Say no to paranoia and fascist fantasies!
Say yes to reason and peace!
Steve Hayes
2006-03-22 03:19:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Arnakis
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 05:27:12 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by nick cobb
Slobodan Milosevic Dies in Prison Cell
When I saw the subject line I thought Madeleine Albright had died. or Bill
Clinton.
See what I meant in my other post in this thread?
Still making excuses for Serbian genocide, eh?
ICTY Expert Witness Report

The Butcher of the Balkans?

The Crime of Joint Criminal Enterprise and the Miloevif Indictments at
International Criminal Tribunal at The Hague

This is a slightly amended version of a draft ICTY Expert Witness Report,
written at the request of Mr Miloevif and his legal team but not submitted
to the Tribunal as the proceedings were halted with Miloevifs death on
Saturday 11 March 2006.

http://www.wmin.ac.uk/sshl/pdf/CSDCHandlerHagueReport0306_5_.pdf

By David Chandler, Professor of International Relations, Centre for the
Study of Democracy, University of Westminster, London, UK
Email: ***@westminster.ac.uk
Web page: http://imm-live.wmin.ac.uk/sshl/page-63-smhp=1
--
The unworthy deacon,
Stephen Methodius Hayes
Contact: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
Orthodox mission pages: http://www.orthodoxy.faithweb.com/
Alec
2006-03-13 02:14:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by nick cobb
Slobodan Milosevic Dies in Prison Cell
When I saw the subject line I thought Madeleine Albright had died. or Bill
Clinton.
--
The unworthy deacon,
Stephen Methodius Hayes
Contact: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
Orthodox mission pages: http://www.orthodoxy.faithweb.com/
I am not a Serb and can claim no expertise on Balkan affairs. I know
that great crimes were committed. But today in church I prayed for
Milosevic's soul. He, too, is not beyond the love of God.
A.L.
R.V. Gronoff
2006-03-13 03:57:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alec
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by nick cobb
Slobodan Milosevic Dies in Prison Cell
When I saw the subject line I thought Madeleine Albright had died. or Bill
Clinton.
--
The unworthy deacon,
Stephen Methodius Hayes
Contact: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
Orthodox mission pages: http://www.orthodoxy.faithweb.com/
I am not a Serb and can claim no expertise on Balkan affairs. I know
that great crimes were committed. But today in church I prayed for
Milosevic's soul. He, too, is not beyond the love of God.
A.L.
He's now facing God as an Albanian child.
--
Virez Ahmadinejad pour me répondre.
Remove Ahmadinejad to reply.

http://bluedusk.blogspot.com/
v***@lycos.com
2006-03-13 11:25:09 UTC
Permalink
R.V. Gronoff posted on Mar 13 2006
Post by Alec
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by nick cobb
Slobodan Milosevic Dies in Prison Cell
When I saw the subject line I thought Madeleine Albright had died. or Bill
Clinton.
I am not a Serb and can claim no expertise on Balkan affairs. I know
that great crimes were committed. But today in church I prayed for
Milosevic's soul. He, too, is not beyond the love of God.
A.L.
"He's now facing God as an Albanian child."

I am far from a fan of his... but he is no different than any one of
us... we will all die... at the end we all will stand with one thing
our decisions/choices/actions... each of us... something more important
to contemplate than this man...
R.V. Gronoff
2006-03-13 12:32:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@lycos.com
R.V. Gronoff posted on Mar 13 2006
Post by Alec
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by nick cobb
Slobodan Milosevic Dies in Prison Cell
When I saw the subject line I thought Madeleine Albright had died. or Bill
Clinton.
I am not a Serb and can claim no expertise on Balkan affairs. I know
that great crimes were committed. But today in church I prayed for
Milosevic's soul. He, too, is not beyond the love of God.
A.L.
"He's now facing God as an Albanian child."
I am far from a fan of his... but he is no different than any one of
us...
Speak for yourself: I haven't commanded any genocide nor been
responsible of any kind of murder or massacre.
Post by v***@lycos.com
we will all die... at the end we all will stand with one thing
our decisions/choices/actions... each of us... something more important
to contemplate than this man...
As an Orthodox Christian and a Slave I personnaly hold something against
Milosevic: the tons of insults and spits we, at the Russian cathedral of
Paris, received during the Easter procession of 1999.
He and his accomplices, including bishops and in some respect patriarch
Paul himself, are responsible for giving a bad name to slavic Orthodoxy.

And this is a crime against the spirit.
--
Virez Ahmadinejad pour me répondre.
Remove Ahmadinejad to reply.

http://bluedusk.blogspot.com/
Bbd
2006-03-13 14:00:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.V. Gronoff
Post by v***@lycos.com
R.V. Gronoff posted on Mar 13 2006
Post by Alec
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by nick cobb
Slobodan Milosevic Dies in Prison Cell
When I saw the subject line I thought Madeleine Albright had died. or Bill
Clinton.
I am not a Serb and can claim no expertise on Balkan affairs. I know
that great crimes were committed. But today in church I prayed for
Milosevic's soul. He, too, is not beyond the love of God.
A.L.
"He's now facing God as an Albanian child."
I am far from a fan of his... but he is no different than any one of
us...
Speak for yourself: I haven't commanded any genocide nor been
responsible of any kind of murder or massacre.
Post by v***@lycos.com
we will all die... at the end we all will stand with one thing
our decisions/choices/actions... each of us... something more important
to contemplate than this man...
As an Orthodox Christian and a Slave
"Slav" ("slave" veut dire "esclave")
Post by R.V. Gronoff
I personnaly hold something against
Milosevic: the tons of insults and spits we, at the Russian cathedral of
Paris, received during the Easter procession of 1999.
I have no recollection of any reports of this in the media.

Was this perhaps just another a display (on the flimsiest of pretexts)
of the self-destructive European hostility to Christianity that we hear
so much about?
Post by R.V. Gronoff
He and his accomplices, including bishops and in some respect patriarch
Paul himself, are responsible for giving a bad name to slavic Orthodoxy.
While North Americans are slightly less hostile to religion in general,
the media on this side of the Atlantic are always happy to report (or
more accurately "to distort") anything that might tend to put
Christianity in a bad light. I imagine that the same obtains in Europe.

The Milosevic atrocities were inseparable from the long and tragic
history of ethnic and religious hostility in the Balkans, and cannot
properly be understood out of context.
Post by R.V. Gronoff
And this is a crime against the spirit.
--
Virez Ahmadinejad pour me répondre.
Remove Ahmadinejad to reply.
http://bluedusk.blogspot.com/
R.V. Gronoff
2006-03-13 14:25:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bbd
Post by R.V. Gronoff
As an Orthodox Christian and a Slave
"Slav" ("slave" veut dire "esclave")
Post by R.V. Gronoff
I personnaly hold something against
Milosevic: the tons of insults and spits we, at the Russian cathedral of
Paris, received during the Easter procession of 1999.
I have no recollection of any reports of this in the media.
Well, it was only local. The neighbours played rap and other rock music
louder than the choir so that we couldn't hear the chants, and they
threw some trash to us, as well as many insults, from their windows.
Post by Bbd
Was this perhaps just another a display (on the flimsiest of pretexts)
of the self-destructive European hostility to Christianity that we hear
so much about?
No, it was clearly a demonstration of despise towards the Orthodox
Church and the Slavs because of what the Serbs had been perpetrating in
Yugoslavia for years.
--
Virez Ahmadinejad pour me répondre.
Remove Ahmadinejad to reply.

http://bluedusk.blogspot.com/
Bbd
2006-03-13 14:54:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.V. Gronoff
Post by Bbd
Post by R.V. Gronoff
As an Orthodox Christian and a Slave
"Slav" ("slave" veut dire "esclave")
Post by R.V. Gronoff
I personnaly hold something against
Milosevic: the tons of insults and spits we, at the Russian cathedral of
Paris, received during the Easter procession of 1999.
I have no recollection of any reports of this in the media.
Well, it was only local. The neighbours played rap and other rock music
louder than the choir so that we couldn't hear the chants, and they
threw some trash to us, as well as many insults, from their windows.
I can't imagine that happening here; if it did, someone would summon
the police and action would be taken very quickly.
Post by R.V. Gronoff
Post by Bbd
Was this perhaps just another a display (on the flimsiest of pretexts)
of the self-destructive European hostility to Christianity that we hear
so much about?
No, it was clearly a demonstration of despise towards the Orthodox
Church and the Slavs because of what the Serbs had been perpetrating in
Yugoslavia for years.
The fact that it was directed at a Russian congregation suggests that
deeper hostilities were being expressed. Is there, in France, the kind
of antipathy towards the Slavic peoples that the Germans nurtured
during the last century (and transmitted to the modern greeks, among
others)?
Post by R.V. Gronoff
--
Virez Ahmadinejad pour me répondre.
Remove Ahmadinejad to reply.
http://bluedusk.blogspot.com/
++
2006-03-15 08:03:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alec
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by nick cobb
Slobodan Milosevic Dies in Prison Cell
When I saw the subject line I thought Madeleine Albright had died. or Bill
Clinton.
--
The unworthy deacon,
Stephen Methodius Hayes
Contact: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
Orthodox mission pages: http://www.orthodoxy.faithweb.com/
I am not a Serb and can claim no expertise on Balkan affairs. I know
that great crimes were committed. But today in church I prayed for
Milosevic's soul. He, too, is not beyond the love of God.
A.L.
He did not choose to have a soul. He, like his commie theoretician wife
Mira Markovic, only used Orthodoxy as a propaganda tool, not as a
believer's religion. His father was a theologian. He DID know the
difference and chose secularism and communism over religion.
++
2006-03-15 14:53:48 UTC
Permalink
*Western peace prevention
continues in former
Yugoslavia**

*PressInfo # 234*

*March 9, 2006*

/By/

/Jan Oberg/ <http://www.transnational.org/tff/people/j_oberg.html>/, TFF
director
/

If you believe that Western politics should serve as a model of decency,
fairness and principled policies, consider these topical news from
ex-Yugoslavia:

*•* Kofi Annan's envoy on Kosovo, former Finnish President Martti
Ahtisaari, tells Der Spiegel that Kosovo is heading for independence. In
a tone that can only be characterized as arrogant, he tells the Serb
side that they should know the rules of the game and know their own best
interests. This simply means he is no mediator who listens to and
respects all sides with a view to find a fair solution. He is an agent
for powers who can dictate their solution. Is Kofi Annan concerned?

*•* Kosovo which was bombed off from Serbia and occupied by NATO's
illegal war in 1999 thus seems lost for Serbia. Will the remaining Serbs
in Kosovo run away, start a guerrilla movement, try to join Serbia? Will
there be a border war at some point? While all experts agree that
Kosovo's leaders have not lived up to minimum standards for human
rights, tolerance and refugee returns over the last seven years, the
status will now come before standards; it is the exactly opposite of
what the West decided a few years ago.

*•* Kofi Annan's Representative, Danish diplomat Søren Jessen Petersen,
running UNMIK in the province, for a second time praises a suspected war
criminal. Is Kofi Annan concerned that top-level UN staff does that?
Earlier it was Ramush Haradinaj, the former Prime Minister indicted in
the Hague. Now it is Agim Ceku, the new PM. Denmark has enough of
scandals on its desk right now, so Jessen Petersen's flirtation with
ethnic cleansers perhaps doesn't add much.

*• *Ceku was a leading officer in the Croatian Army when - in 1995 with
the help of CIA and mercenary companies - it ethnically cleansed about
200.000 legitimate Croatian Serb citizens out of Croatia. 90% of them
are still refugees in Serbia, no one supporting their return. Thus, all
Yugoslavia's minorities were not and are not protected by Western human
rights; Serbs are not worthy victims.
From 1993, Ceku went down and helped the most extremist people in his
native Kosovo to build the KLA, the Kosovo Liberation Army behind the
back of Dr. Rugova, the only pacifist leader in the now chopped-up
country. (I know what Ceku did because I have had him tell me the story
himself). KLA and Ceku was generously assisted by the German
Intelligence Service, BND and - after the US took KLA off its list of
terrorist organizations - by CIA. The moderate, pragmatically
non-violent Kosovo-Albanian leader Dr. Rugova, who recently passed away,
was dangerous; imagine he had achieved an independent Kosovo by
non-violent means: what a catastrophe for those who believe in violent
intervention, bombings and occupations as roads to peace.

*•* Immediately after the West's UN-NATO-EU-OSCE occupation of Serbia's
province, we were told that they disarmed the KLA. They didn't, and
everybody knew. KLA was a leading agency in effecting about 200.000
Serbs to leave Kosovo; proportionately it was the largest ethnic
cleansing in the Balkans. But it was ours, so the Western free press
turned a blind eye. KLA people also orchestrated the warfare across the
border in Southern Serbia, and the 8-months war in Macedonia. It's all
conveniently forgotten today; it has to be since Western interests are
heading for an independent Kosovo/a. It's the logical consequence of
NATO's bombing in 1999. And it does not seem to bother too many that
this whole process is also a violation of UN Security Council resolution
1244. With Mr. Ceku entering the scene as the West's preferred
statesman, Dr. Rugova is dead in more than one sense.

*•* The West, NATO, the UN and lobby groups like the International
Crisis Group (of which Ahtisaari has been a leading member) argued that
Kosovo-Albanians should not be criticised for forcing another good
200.000 Serbs out of Kosovo in the months after NATO's KLA-assisted
destruction of both Kosovo and Serbia proper. The reason? They had
suffered so much under Milosevic. While there is no doubt that Albanians
suffered heavily under Milosevic police-state repression in Kosovo,
there is also no doubt that a) Serbia is the only country to have wiped
out their old leader by non-violent means and that b) reverse ethnic
cleansing is disgusting and unacceptable. Together with Serbs from
Croatia and Bosnia, these Kosovo-Serbs are still living as virtually
non-noticed and forgotten refugees in Serbia, there are about 500.000 of
them.

*•* Former Kosovo PM, Ramush Haradinaj - accused of serious war crimes -
has been permitted by the Tribunal in the Hague to live in Kosovo. In
contrast, Milosevic's request to be granted permission to go to Russia
for urgent medical treatment in Russia has been turned down.

*•* The West requires Serbia to deliver Karadzic and Mladic to the
Hague. The problem is that both CIA and FBI have been granted access to
Serbia long ago and they have not been able to locate them. What game do
Western powers play when they pretend that they have not been able to
arrest these two people in Bosnia or elsewhere since 1995?

*•* Just a few days ago, the EU decided that Montenegro, the smaller
partner in today's Serbia and Montenegro, may hold a referendum on
independence. Remember, EU's foreign policy chief, Javier Solana, was
S-G of NATO at the time, the highest civilian person behind the
destruction of Yugoslavia.

The International Herald Tribune writes that the EU suggests "that
Montenegro be allowed to secede from the two-state federation if 50
percent of the electorate takes part in the vote and 55 percent of
voters opt for independence." Amazing indeed; a new European state can
be created with only 27.5% or less that 200.000 voters behind it. And,
remember, there are more Montenegrins living in Serbia than in
Montenegro. So, the EU here uses a recipe for a) deep divisions or civil
war inside, and b) population exchanges - Montenegrins in Serbia to
Montenegro, Serbs in Montenegro to Serbia.
Furthermore, an independent Montenegro and an independent Kosovo will
make the Serbs in Bosnia ask why on earth they should keep on being
loyal with the independent "Dayton" Bosnia that 99% of them never voted
for and which they - like all other citizens in Bosnia - was never asked
to accept in a referendum.

*The international "community's" peace prevention continues *
Today few remember or know what happened 15-25 years ago in the Balkans.
Few if any bother to see patterns and underlying structures. Few dare be
politically incorrect and challenge the basic interpretations and the
conflict (mis)management by the "international community" or the
Balkanization of the EU and the U.S. Peace-making has become
interventionism and occupation in disguise. The free Western media feel
free to turn the blind eye to the absurdities and lack of principle that
has become the brand of Western politics. If they did, there would be
some who could point out the complete moral bankruptcy on which the
above-mentioned policy initiatives are based.

Imagine that Serbia - the predictable net loser par excellence in the
Yugoslav dissolution process since the 1980s - reacts to all the above
by stalling, dragging its feet as they say, seeming to be uncooperative
and even embittered. Imagine that these developments will make life
impossible for moderates and Western-oriented actors in Serbia and play
into the hands of the nationalist hardliners such as the Radical Party
and that, together with other Chetnik sentiments, it wins the next
election. Imagine that Serbia and its citizens turn inward, feel
humiliated and become nationalist again.
Then all those who have understood absolutely nothing of Yugoslavia the
last 15 years will ask oh-so-innocently: How come these Serbs are so
stubborn? Why don't they modernize themselves and become good European
like the rest? Why don't they see their own best interest which is what
we offer them? How strange that they won't just give up everything they
cherished - Yugoslavia, autonomy for Croatian Serbs, Republika Srpska,
Kosovo, Montenegro and - who knows when in the future - Voivodina and
Sandjak in exchange for - exactly, you're right - nothing!
After 15 years of conflict mismanagement the West still seems to
understand none of the complexities, psychology or history here. So be
sure of two things: the U.S. and various EU members have their interests
and when the next Balkan crisis erupts, they will stand united with two
arguments: 1) we did nothing wrong and 2) the Serbs remain the problem!
Remember Ahtisaari - the UN and State Department in one - says it
bluntly: it is in Serbia's best interest to play according to our rules
and forget whatever interests it may have.

We have not seen the end of the suffering in former Yugoslavia. Whether
sooner or in a few decades ahead, we are likely to see violence erupt
again.

The Holbrookes, Ahtisaaris and Jessen-Petersens as well as those whose
puppets they are will know to blame one or more local parties and never
ask: did we, the international community, perpetuate the Balkan tragedy?

Perhaps with the exception of Slovenia, genuine peace is found nowhere
in former Yugoslavia. If Western actors were able to learn any lessons,
we would see some change in the conflict "management" policies in the
region. But that won't happen, because that would amount to a
recognition of the counterproductive policies pursued the last 15 years.
Thus, predictably, Western peace prevention continues, and -how cruel! -
innocent Balkan citizens, not the conflict mismanagers, will pay the prize.

/* The PressInfo is purely critical. The constructive, principled
alternatives concerning Kosovo have been presented earlier in the
//Kosovo Solution Series/
<http://www.transnational.org/forum/meet/2005/Forum_Coll_Kosovo.html>/
and in //PressInfo 228/
<http://www.transnational.org/pressinf/2005/pi228_Oberg_Mitic_Kosovo.html>/.
http://www.transnational.org/pressinf/2005/pi228_Oberg_Mitic_Kosovo.html
/
Alexander Arnakis
2006-03-15 19:39:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by ++
He did not choose to have a soul. He, like his commie theoretician wife
Mira Markovic, only used Orthodoxy as a propaganda tool, not as a
believer's religion. His father was a theologian. He DID know the
difference and chose secularism and communism over religion.
No one can "choose to have a soul," or not. Having a soul comes with
the human condition. What we do with our potentialities here on earth
is up to us. Whatever we do, we're going to be "saved" in the sense of
reuniting with the Godhead. But a sense of divine justice would seem
to indicate that there are consequences in the Hereafter as a result
of what we do here.
++
2006-03-16 03:25:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Arnakis
Post by ++
He did not choose to have a soul. He, like his commie theoretician wife
Mira Markovic, only used Orthodoxy as a propaganda tool, not as a
believer's religion. His father was a theologian. He DID know the
difference and chose secularism and communism over religion.
No one can "choose to have a soul," or not. Having a soul comes with
the human condition.
Read the sentence. What existed and what he chose could be two
different things.
Post by Alexander Arnakis
What we do with our potentialities here on earth
is up to us. Whatever we do, we're going to be "saved" in the sense of
reuniting with the Godhead. But a sense of divine justice would seem
to indicate that there are consequences in the Hereafter as a result
of what we do here.
NSS. Sometimes you post just to post
Alexander Arnakis
2006-03-16 05:22:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by ++
NSS. Sometimes you post just to post
I defer to your expertise in this area.
mr. snerdly
2006-03-14 15:32:04 UTC
Permalink
Expert Suggests Milosevic Died in a Drug Ploy

By MARLISE SIMONS

THE HAGUE, March 13 - A top toxicologist in the Netherlands said
Monday that he believed that Slobodan Milosevic, the former Yugoslav
leader, had been manipulating medication to fake a medical condition, a
ploy that contributed to his ill heath and may have played a role in
the heart attack that caused his death.

That theory was advanced by Dr. Donald Uges, professor of clinical and
forensic toxicology at the University of Groningen, who suggested that
Mr. Milosevic had been seeking to demonstrate that Dutch doctors could
not cure him and that he should therefore be allowed to seek treatment,
and freedom, in Moscow.

He was imprisoned here on charges of war crimes and crimes against
humanity, including genocide during three Balkan wars in the 1990's.

Dr. Uges based his theory on his detection in Mr. Milosevic's blood of
a drug that had not been prescribed for him and that was not only
inappropriate but, under the circumstances, dangerous. Mr. Milosevic,
who had complained days before that he was being poisoned, was found
dead on his bed in his prison cell on Saturday morning.

The drug at issue is a powerful antibiotic known as rifampicin, used to
treat serious bacterial infections like tuberculosis, leprosy and
Legionnaire's disease. Rifampicin, detected in Mr. Milosevic's blood as
recently as two weeks ago, is known to interfere with medications he
was taking for high blood pressure.

An international team of doctors, including Dutch, Belgian and Serbian
forensic specialists, attended an autopsy on Sunday and said in a
preliminary report that Mr. Milosevic had died of a heart attack. Their
toxicology tests are due in the next few days.

But experts from Moscow want to examine the results and perform their
own autopsy in the belief that the previous one was inconclusive or
erroneous, a plan that could delay Milosevic family plans to take the
body to Belgrade for burial.

Other investigations are still going on. The Dutch police and the
United Nations tribunal where Mr. Milosevic was on trial for four years
are carrying on their own investigations into his abrupt death.

The discovery of the antibiotic in Mr. Milosevic's blood has raised a
number of questions, including who brought it into prison and how it
ended up in Mr. Milosevic's system.

The Dutch police have searched for clues in the three rooms most used
by Mr. Milosevic: his private cell, the small room he used as his
office, and the room where he received visitors. They are also
investigating the source of the drug, which is difficult to obtain in
the Netherlands.

All physicians treating Mr. Milosevic have reported that they never
prescribed rifampicin for him, confidential court documents show.

Dr. Uges, in a 90-minute telephone interview on Monday, said he was
first contacted in January by a senior toxicologist in The Hague, Dr.
Daan Touw, who had been consulted by the court about Mr. Milosevic
recurrent health problems.

"Milosevic had constant high blood pressure, and the cocktail that
always works was having no effect," Dr. Uges said. "So Touw had
concluded that another medicine was being used to stimulate the liver
and to neutralize this cocktail. He asked me for a report, a
counter-expertise, because his own report had been dismissed by
Milosevic's lawyers."

"We both had the idea there was an unknown drug which broke down his
own medication, and we got the idea that the most efficient was
rifampicin," he said. "I wrote a report about this in January, which
was sent to the court."

"In late February," he said, "I was asked to check a blood sample for
rifampicin and found it," he said, adding that he was told only later
that it belonged to Mr. Milosevic.

Dr. Uges said it was an unusual test. "Normally when you screen for
toxic drugs you never screen for rifampicin because it is specific for
tuberculosis and leprosy, so unless you have a reason, you don't look
for it," he said.

The side effect of the antibiotic, he said, is that it activates the
enzymes in the liver, so his blood pressure drugs would be quickly
broken down, keeping his pressure high.

As he tried to make sense of the drug's use, he said, he learned that
Mr. Milosevic had been insisting on going to Moscow for treatment.

Discussing the case with colleagues, Dr. Uges said he had concluded:
"There was one escape for Milosevic out of prison, and that was to
Moscow where his wife and son, and friends were. He wanted to go to
Moscow on a one-way trip.

"The only way he could do that was to accuse us, to say that Dutch
doctors were not treating him well."

Once in Moscow, all Mr. Milosevic would have to do was to stop the
rifampicin.

Dr. Uges continued: "The only reason he could have taken it was to keep
his blood pressure high, so he could say, 'I have to stay in Moscow
because The Hague is too dangerous for me.' "

He said Mr. Milosevic was getting sophisticated advice.

"The provider had to know what the effect of rifampicin was on other
drugs, that it is not normally detected in toxic screenings, unless you
look for it," he said. "He had to know what dose to give, sufficient
for it to be effective, but not too high because you get a so-called
red sweat: your saliva becomes red."

And someone would have to know how to get it to the patient, he
continued, "because you have to take a capsule of it every day to keep
your blood pressure high."

"It's like a James Bond story," Dr. Uges said.

According to the court records, Mr. Milosevic had high blood pressure
readings for months, but the condition did not respond to medication.
He was apparently preparing his ploy as far back as October, court
officials said Tuesday, asking not to be identified because the
investigations are still under way.

In November, at his request, he was examined by three doctors, from
France, Russia and Serbia, who recommended a minimum rest of six weeks
because his condition was "unstable" and further complications might
arise.

Zdenko Tomanovic, one of his lawyers, said at the time that Mr.
Milosevic was already taking a dozen different medicines, and that he
had had a brain scan, but that he had wanted an independent opinion
because he was suffering increasing pains in his ears and head from
high blood pressure.

In mid-December, Mr. Milosevic asked to be released temporarily to
visit Moscow, but prosecutors argued against that, saying it was far
from certain he would return. The judges delayed a decision, but in
January, he renewed his requests to go to Moscow. He repeatedly refused
permission for his doctors' reports to be disclosed.

When prosecutors again asked for his medical reports in January, they
said they had information that he was manipulating his health through
medicines. He shot back in court that the information was private.

Dr. Uges said he believed that the antibiotic taken by Mr. Milosevic
had not been acquired in the Netherlands. He said it was hard to
obtain, because in the Netherlands it was prescribed exclusively for
tuberculosis and every tuberculosis case here had to be reported to the
authorities, for such patients were isolated in separate clinics.

He said it was possible that the antibiotic would not be found in Mr.
Milosevic's autopsy because the drug typically disappears after one or
two days. Mr. Milosevic may well have stopped taking it in the end,
because on March 7 he learned the drug had been found in his blood
sample, Dr. Uges said.

Mr. Milosevic wrote a letter, dated March 8, to the Russian government,
saying that on March 7, he received a report that "an extremely strong
drug" was found in his blood and that doctors were treating him wrongly
to silence him. His lawyer, Mr. Tomanovic, said Mr. Milosevic feared
that he was being poisoned.

Mr. Tomanovic said he had delivered this letter, accompanied by a
handwritten note from Mr. Milosevic, to the Russian Embassy in The
Hague on Friday morning. He was found dead the next morning.



Copyright 2006The New York Times Company

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/14/international/europe/14milosevic.html?ei=5094&en=8d279adb1f2775ee&hp=&ex=1142398800&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print
Post by nick cobb
Slobodan Milosevic Dies in Prison Cell
Mar 11, 3:43 PM (ET)
By ARTHUR MAX
AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (AP) - Former Yugoslav leader Slobodan Milosevic,
the so-called "butcher of the Balkans" being tried for war crimes after
orchestrating a decade of bloodshed that killed 250,000 people and broke
up his country, was found dead Saturday in his prison cell. He was 64.
Milosevic, who suffered chronic heart ailments and high blood pressure,
apparently died of natural causes and was found in his bed, the U.N.
tribunal said, without giving an exact time of death.
He had been examined following frequent complaints of fatigue or ill
health that delayed his trial, but the tribunal could not immediately
say when his last medical checkup was. All detainees at the center in
Scheveningen are checked by a guard every half hour.
The tribunal said Milosevic's family had been informed of his death,
which came nearly five years after he was arrested, then extradited to
The Hague.
Chief U.N. war crimes prosecutor Carla Del Ponte said she regretted
Milosevic's death because she believed she would have won his conviction.
"I also regret it for the victims, the thousands of victims, who have
been waiting for justice," Del Ponte told German-language Swiss
Television DRS while visiting her native Switzerland.
His wife, Mirjana Markovic, who was often accused of being the power
behind the scenes during her husband's autocratic rule, has been in
self-imposed exile in Russia since 2003. His son, Marko, also lives in
Russia, and his daughter, Marija, lives in Montenegro.
Borislav Milosevic, who lives in Moscow, blamed the U.N tribunal for
causing his younger brother's death by refusing him medical treatment in
Russia.
"All responsibility for this lies on the shoulders of the international
tribunal. He asked for treatment several months ago, they knew this," he
told The Associated Press. "They drove him to this as they didn't want
to let him out alive."
Milosevic asked the court in December to let him go to Moscow for
treatment. But the tribunal refused, despite assurances from Russia that
Milosevic would return to finish his trial.
The White House said it was waiting for more information.
"We have seen the news that Slobodan Milosevic has died in his prison in
The Hague," spokesman Blair Jones said. "We do not have all the details
yet."
U.S. State Department acting spokesman Tom Casey said "the tribunal will
be looking into the circumstances" of Milosevic's death.
The tribunal said it would conduct a full inquiry, including an autopsy
on Sunday and toxicological examination. A pathologist from
Serbia-Montenegro will observe the autopsy.
But Borislav Milosevic said his family does not trust the U.N. tribunal
to conduct that autopsy impartially.
Slobodan Milosevic has been on trial since February 2002, defending
himself against 66 counts of crimes, including genocide, in Croatia,
Bosnia and Kosovo. He was the first sitting head of state ever to be
indicted for such crimes.
He was accused of orchestrating a brutal campaign of ethnic cleansing
against non-Serbs during the collapse of the Yugoslav federation - his
attempt to link Serbia with Serb-dominated areas of Croatia and Bosnia
to create a new Greater Serbia.
Supporters in Milosevic's homeland declared his death a "huge loss,"
while citizens of Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo said his death brought some
justice to his victims.
"Finally, we have some reason to smile. God is fair," said Hajra Catic,
who heads an association of women that lost their loved ones in the 1995
massacre of 8,000 Muslims in the eastern Srebrenica enclave by Serb troops.
Milosevic spent much of the time granted for his defense fighting
allegations of atrocities in Kosovo that took up just one-third of his
indictment. He also faced charges of genocide in Bosnia for allegedly
overseeing the Srebrenica slaughter - the worst massacre on European
soil since World War II.
The trial was recessed last week to await his next defense witness.
Milosevic also was waiting for a court decision on his request to
subpoena former President Clinton as a witness. He was due to complete
his defense this summer.
The hundreds of witnesses included former U.S. Gen. Wesley Clark, the
NATO commander during the Balkan wars. Milosevic also tried to subpoena
former U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, former German
Chancellor Gerhard Shroeder and British Prime Minister Tony Blair.
Steven Kay, a British attorney assigned to represent Milosevic, said
Saturday the former Serb leader would not have fled and was not suicidal.
"He said to me: 'I haven't taken on all this work just to walk away from
it and not come back. I want to see this case through,'" Kay told the
British Broadcasting Corp.
Milosevic's death came less than a week after the star witness in his
trial, former Croatian Serb leader Milan Babic, was found dead in the
same prison. Babic, who was serving a 13-year prison sentence, committed
suicide.
His testimony in 2002 described a political and military command
structure headed by Milosevic in Belgrade that operated behind the scenes.
Milosevic's death will be a crushing blow to the tribunal and those
looking to establish an authoritative historical record of the Balkan wars.
"Justice was late," said Hashim Thaci, the leader of ethnic Albanian
insurgents against Milosevic's forces in 1998-1999 in Kosovo's capital,
Pristina. "God took him."
Though the witness testimony is on public record, history will be denied
the judgment of a panel of legal experts weighing the evidence of his
personal guilt and the story of his regime.
"It is a pity he didn't live to the end of the trial to get the sentence
he deserved," Croatian President Stipe Mesic said.
The European Union said Milosevic's death does not absolve Serbia of
responsibility to hand over other war crimes suspects.
The death "does not alter in any way the need to come to terms with the
legacy of the Balkan wars," Austrian Foreign Minister Ursula Plassnik,
whose country holds the rotating EU president, said in Salzburg.
Milosevic, a figure of beguiling charm and cunning ruthlessness, was a
master tactician who turned his country's defeats into personal
victories and held onto power for 13 years despite losing four wars that
shattered his nation and impoverished his people.
Milosevic led Serbia, the dominant Yugoslav republic, into four Balkan
wars during the 1990s. The secret of his survival was his uncanny
ability to exploit what less adroit figures would consider a fatal blow.
He once described himself as the "Ayatollah Khomeini of Serbia,"
assuring his prime minister, Milan Panic, that "the Serbs will follow me
no matter what." For years, they did - through wars that dismembered
Yugoslavia and plunged what was left of the country into social,
political, moral and economic ruin.
But in the end, his people abandoned him: first in October 2000, when he
was unable to convince the majority of Yugoslavs that he had staved off
electoral defeat by his successor, Vojislav Kostunica, and again on
April 1, 2001, when he surrendered after a 26-hour standoff to face
criminal charges stemming from his ruinous rule.
Bosnia also has sued Serbia, accusing it of genocide in the first case
of a country standing trial for humanity's worst crime.
Milosevic was born Aug. 20, 1941, in Pozarevac, a drab factory town in
central Serbia best known as the home of one of the country's most
notorious prisons.
His father was a defrocked Orthodox priest and sometime teacher of
Russian. His mother also was a teacher. Both committed suicide.
In high school, he met his future wife, the daughter of a wartime
communist partisan hero. Markovic also was the niece of Davorjanka
Paunovic, private secretary and mistress of Josip Broz Tito, the
communist guerrilla leader who seized power in Yugoslavia at the end of
World War II.
Milosevic became president of Serbia in 1989 elections widely considered
rigged. His rise alarmed the other peoples of former Yugoslavia -
Slovenes, Croats, Macedonians, Albanians and others - who feared that
the hard-line nationalist would allow Serbs to dominate the country.
In 1991, Croatia and Slovenia declared their independence from
Yugoslavia. Milosevic sent tanks to Slovenian borders, triggering a
brief war that ended in Slovenia's secession.
Serbs in Croatia, encouraged by Milosevic, took up arms. Milosevic sent
the Serb-led Yugoslav army to intervene, triggering a conflict that left
at least 10,000 people dead and hundreds of Croatian villages and towns
devastated before a U.N.-patrolled cease-fire was arranged in January 1992.
Three months later, Bosnia-Herzegovina declared its independence, too.
Milosevic bankrolled the Bosnian Serb rebellion, triggering an even
bigger war that killed an estimated 200,000 people before a
U.S.-brokered peace agreement was reached at Dayton, Ohio, in 1995.
During those conflicts, Yugoslavia was ostracized worldwide, and the
United States called Milosevic "the butcher of the Balkans." Strict
international sanctions and government mismanagement devastated the
economy and left its people impoverished.
At Dayton, Milosevic accepted a deal abandoning Croatia's rebel Serbs,
who were driven from their homes when the Croatian army recaptured
almost all the land the Serbs had seized there in 1991.
The Dayton agreement also meant giving up the nationalist goal of a Serb
state in Bosnia. Nevertheless, it bought Milosevic time and transformed
his image from Balkan villain to benign peacemaker.
Milosevic's term as Serbian president ended in 1997 and the constitution
prevented him from running again. However, he exploited loopholes to
have parliament name him president of Yugoslavia, which then included
only the republics of Serbia and Montenegro.
It was the thorny problem of Kosovo, the majority Albanian province that
served as his springboard to power, which finally set the stage for his
downfall. In February 1998, Milosevic sent troops to crush an ethnic
Albanian uprising there.
The United States and its allies responded with sanctions. In 1999,
after Milosevic refused to sign a Western-dictated peace agreement at
Rambouillet, France, NATO conducted 78 days of punishing airstrikes
against Yugoslavia.
Milosevic refused to back down and instead ordered his troops to crack
down on Kosovo Albanians even harder. More than 800,000 Albanians fled
into neighboring Albania, Montenegro and Macedonia before Milosevic
finally accepted a peace plan and handed over the province to the United
Nations and NATO in June 1999.
Before the conflict ended, the U.N. tribunal indicted Milosevic and four
of his top aides for war crimes and crimes against humanity allegedly
committed in Kosovo. Later, they broadened the charges against him to
include genocide.
R.V. Gronoff
2006-03-14 19:08:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by mr. snerdly
Expert Suggests Milosevic Died in a Drug Ploy
By MARLISE SIMONS
THE HAGUE, March 13 - A top toxicologist in the Netherlands said
Monday that he believed that Slobodan Milosevic, the former Yugoslav
leader, had been manipulating medication to fake a medical condition, a
ploy that contributed to his ill heath and may have played a role in
the heart attack that caused his death.
The first thing you learn in prison is how to get drugs (including
cigarettes!). It's a very well organized black market and Milosevic was
a kingpin of the Balkans mob, so it's not surprising that he could get
anything he wanted from networks acting both in and out of the jailhouse.
--
Virez Ahmadinejad pour me répondre.
Remove Ahmadinejad to reply.

http://bluedusk.blogspot.com/
mr. snerdly
2006-03-14 19:50:24 UTC
Permalink
hmmm.
I'm sure the prison in the Hague was much tighter than the average
jailhouse, but that makes sense. There must be many in the Balkans mob
willling to go all out for him.
R.V. Gronoff
2006-03-15 16:20:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by mr. snerdly
hmmm.
I'm sure the prison in the Hague was much tighter than the average
jailhouse, but that makes sense. There must be many in the Balkans mob
willling to go all out for him.
He was a discraced godfather who perhaps was about to talk too much to
the court, reason why he was silenced.
--
Virez Ahmadinejad pour me répondre.
Remove Ahmadinejad to reply.

http://bluedusk.blogspot.com/
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